2 Reviews on “Cholesterol, From the Ground Up: Where the Best Available Science Actually Stands”

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  • Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

    One of the comments on Facebook I received reminded me of something I should include here so I pasted it here with my response as a reply: “and YOU’RE conflating flawed data as the “long term cardiovascular risk” guess what eating meat isn’t what causes that.. eating meat in your diet in a BAD way does.. it’s a matter of how and why meat causes that risk.. but since generally most non vegans do that very bad way and wrong way all the studies have to use that skewed data because it’s impossible to do it properly.. ALL of those risks are due to additives from over processing and the red meat fats.. guess what happens if your meat isn’t processed with additives and all the fat is trimmed away before you cook and eat it.. all those cardiovascular risks? Nothing.. this is why Hong Kong can be the biggest consumer of meat per person per day in the world at 1.7 POUNDS per day each but still be on par with blue zones for health levels and life expectancy”

    1. Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

      Processed meat does look worse than fresh meat in most studies, and saturated fat really does push LDL up. In one 2025 trial, cutting it from 12 to 6 percent of calories lowered LDL. That one was paid for by the egg industry, so I wouldn’t hang my hat on it, but it fits the bigger picture.

      Where I disagree is the idea that if you take away the additives and the fat, the risk just disappears. That has been tested. In the APPROACH trial, funded by the NIH, volunteers ate red meat, white meat, and plant protein diets for four weeks each. Processed meat was left out on purpose and the saturated fat was matched, so neither of your explanations was in play. LDL and ApoB, the count of particles that clog arteries, were still higher on the meat diets than on plant protein. Nobody was eating it “the wrong way.” The researchers prepared the meals.

      The big population studies lean the same direction. In EPIC, about 410,000 people followed for 12.6 years, the top fifth of fresh red meat eaters had the same estimated extra risk as processed meat eaters, 10 percent for each. To be fair, neither number was statistically significant on its own, but combined, red and processed meat went with a 19 percent higher risk of heart disease for every 100 grams a day. That study was publicly funded. The Adventist Health Study 2 is a good answer to the skewed data point, because it’s a low meat population, not the typical Western burger and bacon crowd. Even there, people eating a lot of fresh red meat had 18 percent higher risk of dying from any cause and 26 percent higher risk of dying from cardiovascular disease than people who ate none. Processed meat alone wasn’t significant in that group. It was funded by the National Cancer Institute.

      Not every study agrees. A big multi country study called PURE found no link for fresh red meat, and some reviews call the overall evidence low certainty. But in a review of 44 trials, none of the independent ones found red meat favorable, and almost three quarters found it unfavorable. The ones that made it look fine were mostly industry linked, and red meat looked neutral compared with other animal foods but worse compared with plant protein in 7 of 10 comparisons. So the answer depends on what you swap it for. In a Harvard study of about 43,000 men, swapping one daily serving of fresh red meat for nuts, beans, or soy went with a 13 percent lower risk of heart disease.

      On Hong Kong, that number is real, but it measures food supply, not what people eat. I covered that in my Hong Kong post https://veganlinked.com/blog/hong-kong. The University of Hong Kong figure everyone quotes is 664 grams a day, about 1.5 pounds, so not even your 1.7, and it came from a greenhouse gas study. Supply data for Hong Kong is inflated because it’s a trading hub, meat gets smuggled to the mainland, and tens of millions of tourists visit. The government’s own survey of what adults actually eat found about 110 grams of meat and poultry a day, roughly a quarter of a pound. The best study on why Hong Kong lives so long, in The Lancet Public Health, credited mostly very strict tobacco control. Daily smoking is about 8.5 percent now, down from around 23 percent in the early 1980s. Add free healthcare and a walkable city. And today’s 85 year olds grew up when meat was a luxury, so their lives can’t tell us what the modern meat heavy diet does. Studies in Asia do show little harm from modest amounts of meat overall, but those intakes are small, nowhere near a pound and a half a day. Comparing countries can raise questions, but it can’t answer them, because wealth drives both meat supply and lifespan.

    2. Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

      You’re right that absolute risk matters, and anyone reading these studies should look at both. Where I’d push back is the idea that the studies only report relative risk. The trials publish the actual event rates in each group, so we can look at the absolute numbers directly.

      In VESALIUS-CV, people with atherosclerosis or diabetes who had never had a heart attack or stroke had a heart attack, stroke, or coronary death at a rate of 8.0 percent on placebo versus 6.2 percent on the drug over five years. In Ez-PAVE, aiming for an LDL under 55 instead of under 70 cut a combined measure of heart attacks, strokes, heart disease deaths, and procedures like stents from 9.7 to 6.6 percent over three years. In ODYSSEY OUTCOMES, in people after a heart attack, it was 11.1 versus 9.5 percent over about 2.8 years. So yes, over a few years of treatment the absolute gap is a couple of percentage points, up to about three. I’m not going to pretend otherwise.

      Those three were drug company funded, so here’s a publicly funded one. The CTT analysis of 27 trials looked at people at low risk, under 10 percent over five years. Each 39 points of LDL lowering cut events from 5.2 to 4.1 percent, about 11 fewer events per 1,000 people. The extra muscle problems were about half a person per 1,000, and a possible similar number of hemorrhagic strokes. The proportional benefit was just as big in the lowest risk groups as the highest, so the absolute benefit grows with baseline risk. In ODYSSEY it was also larger for people who started with an LDL of 100 or more.

      But a few years is a short window for a disease that builds over decades. Few people have an event in any five year stretch, so the absolute number looks small whatever the treatment does. The better question is what happens when the difference lasts a lifetime. In the ARIC study, followed for 15 years, 9.7 percent of Black participants without a PCSK9 loss of function variant had a coronary event, versus 1 of 85 carriers. That group is small and the range is wide, so look at the white participants too: a variant that lowered LDL 15 percent went with 47 percent less coronary disease, in 9,524 people.

      Relative and absolute risk answer different questions. The relative effect shows up with statins, ezetimibe, PCSK9 drugs, and inherited genes, which is why LDL looks causal. Absolute risk tells you how much it matters for a particular person over a particular time. Both matter, and neither one cancels the other.

  • Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

    This keeps coming up “Also, how do we know with absolute certainty that a ketogenic diet or carnivore diet is not healthy when it comes to cardiac events and other markers of health. You mention the keto-CTA study being retracted, but that was only retracted because of methodological errors of unblinding the researchers and having such a narrow focus on lean-mass hyperresponders. The study did not fit with their hypothesis and they should have thought that through before publishing” so I’ll add a response to it here.

    1. Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

      nobody can claim absolute certainty about anything in nutrition. But I want to get the Keto-CTA story right, because it keeps getting retold in a way that doesn’t match the record.

      You’re partly right that the blinding problem was central. The company that read the scans, Cleerly, appears not to have kept its analysts blinded to which scan was the baseline and which was the one year follow up. But that wasn’t all of it. A coauthor was Cleerly’s chief medical officer and held equity in the company. The paper listed his affiliation but not the equity, which he reported to the journal only after the paper was accepted. The retraction notice said the errors were too significant to fix with a correction. As far as I can tell, the narrow focus on lean mass hyper-responders wasn’t a reason for the retraction, though it is a real limit, and I’ll get to that.

      Before any of that, though, came a fair criticism of the framing. The study was about plaque. Its primary outcome was the change in non-calcified plaque volume. But the title and the conclusion led with “plaque predicts plaque, ApoB does not,” while the growth itself sat in the results, a median rise of 18.9 cubic millimeters, and a 43 percent change that appears in the body of the paper, not the abstract. Other physicians called that out publicly. The authors later called the missing relative framing a sincere oversight, which each reader can weigh for themselves.

      But framing is a different question from the data. Most of the authors had stayed blinded to the raw data until after publication. What surfaced later was the unblinded scan reading and the undisclosed equity, and if the unblinding distorted anything, it appears to have exaggerated plaque growth, not hidden it. When the scans were re-read blind by another company, plaque still grew, 37 percent, and the share of people whose plaque shrank went from 15 to 35 percent. That re-analysis is a preprint with no comparison group, so I wouldn’t lean on it too hard either. But it means the inconvenient result survived the fix.

      Their headline also had a built in problem. Median LDL was around 240, so everyone was far above normal and there was very little room to see a difference. It’s like testing whether height predicts basketball skill in a room where everyone is over six feet tall.

      Your narrow focus point is real, and it cuts both ways. This was 100 people recruited through social media who met strict criteria, on ketogenic diets, not carnivore, followed for one year. It can’t prove harm, and it can’t show safety. The broader picture is thin too. When I went through the carnivore research I found nine human studies in total, none randomized or long running cohorts, several case reports, one a Facebook survey. What we do know is what happens to LDL. In a German study of 24 people who switched to a carnivore diet, median LDL rose from 157 to 256.

      So how do we know? We don’t know with certainty, but we know where the burden sits. The genetic, trial, and imaging evidence on LDL doesn’t depend on which diet produced the LDL. People who inherit lower LDL through different routes get the same protection per point of LDL. So if someone says an LDL of 250 from keto is different, that is the claim that needs evidence, and the best attempt so far showed plaque growing. Short term, low carb diets do produce real wins, like weight loss and better blood sugar. I’m not defending an extreme, I’m defending a number, ApoB.

      1. Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

        Here’s where I land. Being curious is good, but curiosity is a reason to keep studying, not a reason to bet your arteries on the pattern with the least evidence, and these two aren’t symmetrical extremes. LDL is a cause of heart disease, and the genetics show the same protection per point of LDL whichever pathway lowers it. In a German study of 24 people who switched to carnivore, LDL rose from 157 to 256. Carnivore eating has no long term outcome data, and the keto imaging study the low carb community ran on itself showed plaque growing. On the other side, a meta-analysis of 30 randomized trials found vegetarian and vegan diets lowered ApoB by 14 percent. In a controlled trial, meat raised LDL and ApoB compared with plant protein even when processed meat was excluded and saturated fat was matched. In a large Harvard cohort, swapping a daily serving of fresh red meat for nuts, beans, or soy went with 13 percent less heart disease. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics says well planned vegan diets, with a B12 supplement, can meet our nutritional needs. So if one way of eating can protect our arteries and doesn’t require animals, then the animals aren’t being eaten out of necessity. This makes me think of the post I have for those who think the science is settled. If that’s the case then there is still no reason to eat animals https://veganlinked.com/blog/science/.

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