2 Reviews on “Plant "Toxins" and "Anti-Nutrients": The Carnivore Scare That Falls Apart Under Its Own Logic”

Excellent
5
2 reviews
5
4
3
2
1
  • Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

    Here are some typical comments and the way a thread may unfold in cyberspace: Someone says “I ended up on PHD from eating plant based. I thought that plants evolved to have miraculous chemicals that enabled them to survive. I learned the hard way that they evolved to have miraculous chemicals that poison me to keep me from eating them. The inflammation almost killed me.”

    1. Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

      My response: Plant defense chemistry is dosed for insects thousands to millions of times smaller than you. At human doses those same compounds behave as mild beneficial stressors, which is why they show up as protective in the outcome data rather than harmful.

      The antioxidant gap is the part that gets skipped. When researchers assayed over 3,100 foods, plant foods averaged roughly 64 times more antioxidants than animal foods, with most animal foods sitting near zero. Whole plant foods are the most anti-inflammatory way of eating available, not the least.

      And “the inflammation almost killed me” is a strong claim with nothing measurable attached. Inflammatory markers are testable. CRP is a cheap standard test. Whether it was actually elevated, and whether it changed, is knowable.

      Worth adding that the Finnish trial swapping red meat for legumes moved cholesterol and choline metabolites while leaving CRP and inflammatory cytokines unchanged, so short trials in healthy people often can’t detect what people attribute to diet by feel.

      If something on a plant-based diet genuinely made you sick, a dietitian or physician practicing lifestyle medicine could have found it. Specific intolerances exist. “Plants are poison” isn’t one of them.

      1. Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

        Then someone else chimes in: ” it’s the carbs genius. How bioavailable are the nutrients in plants? We don’t have the hindgut to effectively process plants. You’re delusional and malnourished lol.”

        1. Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

          My response: wo claims here, both testable, both wrong.

          First, the hindgut. Humans are hindgut fermenters. Your colon is exactly where fiber and resistant starch get fermented by roughly 100 trillion bacteria into short-chain fatty acids like butyrate, which is the primary fuel for the cells lining your colon. That’s not a design flaw, it’s the mechanism behind most of fiber’s benefit. What you’re describing, an outsized fermentation chamber for extracting energy from cellulose, is the ruminant setup, the cow’s. We don’t have that because we’re not trying to live on grass. We cook, and we eat the digestible parts of plants: the starches, sugars, proteins and fats in legumes, grains, tubers and fruit, which absorb in the small intestine like anyone’s. So the claim gets human physiology backwards. We do have a hindgut, it does process plants, and the product feeds the colon directly.

          Second, bioavailability, which you’re treating as a knockout when it’s a solved engineering problem. The mineral-absorption objection is the only technically real part of the anti-nutrient argument, and it’s defused by a lemon wedge, a splash of vinegar, an overnight soak, and keeping tea and coffee away from meals. Vitamin C raises non-heme iron absorption several-fold. Soaking, sprouting and fermenting cut phytate by up to about 86 percent. And non-heme iron’s regulated absorption is a feature: your body takes up more when stores are low and less when they’re full. Heme iron bypasses that thermostat, which is exactly why it’s the form tied to higher colorectal cancer and type 2 diabetes risk. The “poorly bioavailable” iron is the safer iron.

          And here’s the part that flips the whole “antinutrient” frame on its head: those compounds aren’t just harmless, several are actively protective. Phytate, the marquee “antinutrient,” is a potent antioxidant precisely because it chelates free iron and blocks it from generating hydroxyl radicals, and it has broad anti-cancer activity in cell and animal models, with high-phytate diets tracking lower colon cancer rates. Lectins, the other boogeyman, include purified forms being studied as anti-cancer agents. I’ll be straight that the strongest anti-cancer evidence here is preclinical rather than proven human treatment, and I say exactly that in my plant toxins and antinutrients post, but the direction is the opposite of the scare. The one dietary-lectin hazard that’s actually real, raw kidney beans, is solved by boiling, which is a cooking instruction, not a food-group indictment.

          Then there’s the part the taunt skips: bioavailability isn’t uniformly worse from plants. Calcium from low-oxalate greens like kale, bok choy and collards is absorbed better than calcium from cow’s milk. So “how bioavailable are the nutrients in plants” doesn’t have the single embarrassing answer you think it does. It has a nutrient-by-nutrient answer, and several of them favor the plants.

          And “it’s the carbs” isn’t a mechanism, it’s a vibe. Which carb, doing what, measured how? People with type 2 diabetes have come off insulin entirely on diets running 70-plus percent carbohydrate, because insulin resistance is driven by fat accumulating inside muscle and liver cells, not by carbohydrate on the plate. That was shown in 1934 and confirmed with modern imaging.

          Now step back and notice what “more absorbable” actually means when you eat an animal. That animal acquired its nutrients from plants, the same as we do, and used them for its own body’s needs. What ends up on your plate is the processed result: heme iron, sulfur-containing amino acids, saturated fat, cholesterol, arachidonic acid. All of it more absorbable, yes, but more absorbable because you’re eating someone built like you, so your body’s regulatory gates don’t apply. That sounds like an advantage until you remember what those gates are for. Unregulated uptake is exactly what drives inflammation: heme iron your body can’t dial down, cholesterol you make plenty of already, sulfur amino acids that putrefy in the colon. You want it regulated. Regulation is the point. That, at surface level, is the reason a plant-based diet is the anti-inflammatory one: the plant package arrives with the thermostats intact, and the antioxidants to match.

          And don’t assume you’d feel it if it were happening. Chronic disease is chronic precisely because it’s insidious. Atherosclerosis, insulin resistance, the early damage, none of it hurts while it’s building. That’s why “I feel great” is not a lab result. By the time symptoms arrive, it’s often decades in and too late to undo cheaply.

          So here’s the top of the pyramid, above all the mechanism: if plant nutrients weren’t reaching people, plant-based populations would be malnourished. They’re not. Higher plant intake tracks with lower all-cause mortality at every tier of evidence, and the Adventist cohorts, some of the longest-lived people ever measured, eat this way. “Delusional and malnourished” is a diagnosis you’d need labs to make, and the labs on this way of eating point the other way.

          If you’ve got a specific nutrient you think doesn’t absorb, name it and we’ll go through it. “Plants, generally, don’t work in humans” isn’t a claim biology supports. It’s just confident.

      2. Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

        Someone else responds: “your opinions don’t invalidate the commentor’s experiences, or mine. Plant toxins are detrimental to human health.”

        1. Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

          I responded with: Two moves here, and they pull against each other.

          The first is that opinions can’t invalidate experiences. Agreed, and nothing I said was an opinion. The 64-fold antioxidant gap is a lab assay of 3,100 foods. CRP is a standard test. The Finnish legume trial is published data. Calling that “your opinions” is how the actual evidence gets waved past without being touched. And nobody’s invalidating anyone’s experience. What someone felt is real. But a feeling isn’t a diagnosis. “I felt terrible eating plants” doesn’t identify the cause any more than feeling better on carnivore proves it was the meat, because removing ultraprocessed food, alcohol and erratic eating makes people feel better on any diet. An experience tells you something changed. It can’t tell you what, and repeating it louder doesn’t convert it into a mechanism.

          The second move is the real claim: plant toxins are detrimental to human health. That’s not an experience, it’s a testable statement, so it doesn’t get the protection the first sentence just tried to claim for it. And it fails the test.

          Dose is the whole game. Plant defense compounds are calibrated for insects thousands to millions of times smaller than you. At human amounts those same compounds act as mild beneficial stressors that trip your cells’ adaptive machinery and leave you better off, the same mechanism as exercise, sauna and fasting. Caffeine is the clean example: a literal insecticide, and coffee is among the most reliably health-associated foods ever studied, about 17 percent lower all-cause mortality at three to four cups a day across a review of 201 meta-analyses.

          And the specific “antinutrients” this claim rests on are, several of them, protective. Phytate chelates free iron and blocks it from generating radicals, which makes it an antioxidant, and it shows broad anti-cancer activity in cell and animal models, with high-phytate diets tracking lower colon cancer. Lectins include purified forms being studied as anti-cancer agents. I’ll be straight that the strongest anti-cancer evidence there is preclinical, and I say exactly that in my plant toxins and antinutrients post, but the direction is the opposite of “detrimental.” The one genuine dietary-lectin hazard, raw kidney beans, is solved by boiling. That’s a cooking instruction, not a food-group verdict.

          Here’s the part the claim can’t survive. If plant compounds were net-detrimental, higher plant intake would predict worse health. It predicts the opposite at every tier: 185 prospective studies and 58 trials pooled in the Lancet found the highest fiber intakes had 15 to 30 percent lower all-cause and cardiovascular mortality. The longest-lived, lowest-heart-disease populations ever measured eat mostly plants. When the mechanism story says “toxic” and the outcome data on actual humans says “living longer,” the outcomes win.

          So the testable version of “plant toxins are detrimental” is a specific, named intolerance in a specific person, found by a clinician who ran the labs. That exists, and it’s worth taking seriously. The blanket claim doesn’t, because the population eating the most of these so-called toxins is the one the mortality data keeps rewarding. That’s not my opinion. It’s just where the numbers landed, and they’re not mine to move.

  • Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

    And then there is the oxalate fear mongering meme and comment with the meme stating “OXALATES ARE A MITOCHONDRIAL POISON AND CAN AFFECT ENERGY PRODUCTION THROUGHOUT THE BODY” and the a comment like “A great question to ask yourself is—who exactly is pushing the vegan agenda, the plant-based diet, the fake soy and 3D printed meat and the spinach smoothies? From there, connect the dots.” Some puts on social media.

    1. Vegan Linked Avatar Vegan Linked Post owner

      My response: THE MEME FIRST. It states a mechanism and skips the dose, which is how every “plant toxin” graphic works. Yes, oxalate at high concentration disrupts mitochondrial function in cell culture. So does salt. So does oxygen. The question a real toxicologist asks next is: at what exposure, in whom, and compared to what.

      YOUR OWN LIVER MAKES IT. Most of the oxalate in your body is endogenous. Your liver produces it from glyoxylate, and vitamin C metabolism generates more. Diet contributes the minority share. If oxalate were a mitochondrial poison in the sense this meme implies, you would be poisoning yourself around the clock with no help from spinach.

      WHERE THE REAL RISK LIVES. It is narrow and it is named. Primary hyperoxaluria, advanced kidney disease, and people with a calcium-oxalate stone history. Beyond that, the published harm cases are almost uniformly mono-eating: the green-smoothie cleanse case in the American Journal of Kidney Diseases involved a woman drinking liters daily who also had prior gastric bypass and recent antibiotics, both predisposing. Kilograms of one food is not the same claim as “greens are poison.”

      AND IT IS SOLVED IN THE KITCHEN. Boiling drops soluble oxalate by roughly 30 to 87 percent depending on the vegetable. Dietary calcium binds oxalate in the gut before it reaches your kidneys, which is why the landmark NEJM data from Curhan and from Borghi found higher dietary calcium predicts fewer stones, not more. And most greens are not even high-oxalate. Spinach, chard, beet greens, rhubarb and purslane are. Kale, collards, bok choy, arugula and romaine are not. Rotate your greens and the problem evaporates.

      Meanwhile, high animal protein intake is a well-established stone risk factor through acid load, urinary calcium excretion, and uric acid. The meme is warning you off the food group with a cooking fix and pointing you toward the one without.

      THE OUTCOME TEST. If plant compounds were net-toxic, higher plant intake should predict worse health. The Lancet’s 2019 series pooled 185 prospective studies and 58 trials and found the highest fiber intakes had 15 to 30 percent lower all-cause and cardiovascular mortality. Mechanism claims lose to outcome data every time.

      NOTICE THE IRONY. The carnivore diet is the actual mono-diet. It is the eating pattern most exposed to the “too much of one thing” failure mode it projects onto vegetables.

      NOW THE SECOND POST. “Connect the dots” is not an argument, it is a way of avoiding having one. Notice it makes no claim about oxalate, mitochondria, or any health outcome. It just gestures at motive and lets you fill in the villain yourself. That’s unfalsifiable by design.

      But let’s take it seriously and follow the money, because that part is checkable.

      Global meat and dairy is a multi-trillion-dollar sector. Tyson, JBS, Cargill and Nestlé dwarf every plant-based company combined; Beyond Meat’s entire valuation is a rounding error against any one of them, and the alt-meat sector has been contracting, not conquering. In the US, animal agriculture absorbs the large majority of farm subsidy support. There are federally authorized Beef and Dairy checkoff programs collecting hundreds of millions a year to run campaigns like “Got Milk” and “Beef, It’s What’s for Dinner.” There is no comparable federal marketing order for spinach. Nobody has a lobby for lentils.

      Then ask who profits from carnivore content specifically. Supplement lines, coaching programs, book deals, paid communities, and direct-to-consumer beef boxes. That is also a business model. The difference is that it markets itself as the one thing with no business model behind it.

      WHAT AN HONEST VERSION LOOKS LIKE. Conflicts run in both directions and pretending otherwise is the tell. Soy studies funded by the soy industry, plant-based trials co-authored by advocacy groups, and Adventist cohort data from a university with a religious commitment to vegetarianism all deserve flagging, and I flag them. What matters is that the conclusions hold across the funding divide. The finding that high protein does not harm healthy kidneys came from a researcher funded by the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association. The finding that red and white meat raise LDL equally came from authors holding a dairy grant. When the beef-funded and the plant-funded research point the same way, the money stops explaining the result.

      ONE LAST THING ABOUT THE SOY. Over three quarters of the world’s soy goes to animal feed, more than a third of it to poultry alone. If soy is the enemy, the person eating chicken is by far the largest soy consumer in this conversation. They just eat it secondhand.

Leave a Review

Footer preview